Comments on: Getting It Wrong in Montogomery County http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/ Just another WordPress weblog Mon, 13 Feb 2012 13:55:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Andrew Curry http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-2558 Andrew Curry Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:36:32 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-2558 In response to the questions about 20 mph limits, most of the UK traffic research looks at SI units (20/30/40 mph) and the difference in pedestrian impact at 20mph is sufficiently improved (in terms of likelihood of surviving, not being badly injured etc) to not worry about shaving an extra couple of MPH off. (There are increasing numbers of residential streets with 20 mph limits, although they are under-enforced). On enforcement, I wonder if it needs a specialist and separate Traffic/Transport Police Division before it's taken seriously as an issue? In the past when I've talked to people who've spent some time as traffic cops they say that it is usually the lowest status part of a UK police force. No wonder, then, that they don't take it seriously, even though - as some of the discussion above points out - we all have a higher chance of dying in traffic than, say, by being knifed (which the police attach far greater priority to). In response to the questions about 20 mph limits, most of the UK traffic research looks at SI units (20/30/40 mph) and the difference in pedestrian impact at 20mph is sufficiently improved (in terms of likelihood of surviving, not being badly injured etc) to not worry about shaving an extra couple of MPH off. (There are increasing numbers of residential streets with 20 mph limits, although they are under-enforced).

On enforcement, I wonder if it needs a specialist and separate Traffic/Transport Police Division before it’s taken seriously as an issue? In the past when I’ve talked to people who’ve spent some time as traffic cops they say that it is usually the lowest status part of a UK police force. No wonder, then, that they don’t take it seriously, even though - as some of the discussion above points out - we all have a higher chance of dying in traffic than, say, by being knifed (which the police attach far greater priority to).

]]> By: SI Units http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-2031 SI Units Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:41:15 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-2031 "30 kph = 18.6411358 mph The only thing I’m trying to figure out is, is 20 MPH too high a limit to allow here in the US, or should we go ahead and advocate for 18 MPH or less?" You should advocate for SI units :) “30 kph = 18.6411358 mph

The only thing I’m trying to figure out is, is 20 MPH too high a limit to allow here in the US, or should we go ahead and advocate for 18 MPH or less?”

You should advocate for SI units :)

]]> By: Karl-On-Sea http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-2000 Karl-On-Sea Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:40:16 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-2000 . . . and of course, there's some screwy thinking going on in most of our heads as soon as we get behind the wheel. A 30mph speed limit should be perfectly sensible. Except most people treat it as a LOWER rather than an UPPER limit. Echoing David's point - here in Whitley Bay, there's a parade of shops. The road's too narrow for parking on both sides, so people used to park with two wheels up on the pavement [sidewalk]. To prevent this, there's now a row of steel bollards - set about a foot from the edge of the road, taking up as much of the pavement as if there was a car parked there in the first place, but now as a permanent feature. Just sometimes, I wonder if the lunatics really are running the asylum! . . . and of course, there’s some screwy thinking going on in most of our heads as soon as we get behind the wheel. A 30mph speed limit should be perfectly sensible. Except most people treat it as a LOWER rather than an UPPER limit.

Echoing David’s point - here in Whitley Bay, there’s a parade of shops. The road’s too narrow for parking on both sides, so people used to park with two wheels up on the pavement [sidewalk]. To prevent this, there’s now a row of steel bollards - set about a foot from the edge of the road, taking up as much of the pavement as if there was a car parked there in the first place, but now as a permanent feature. Just sometimes, I wonder if the lunatics really are running the asylum!

]]> By: Charles Komanoff http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-1886 Charles Komanoff Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:35:56 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-1886 Excellent, important post, particularly the important rebuttal to the "emergency response time" canard. But you may have omitted the greatest cost of over-engineered, high-speed streets: the discouragement of physical activity (biking and walking) and the consequent missed opportunity to foster improved physical and mental health. Excellent, important post, particularly the important rebuttal to the “emergency response time” canard. But you may have omitted the greatest cost of over-engineered, high-speed streets: the discouragement of physical activity (biking and walking) and the consequent missed opportunity to foster improved physical and mental health.

]]> By: David Hembrow http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-1830 David Hembrow Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:13:06 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-1830 You see just this contrast between British and Dutch roads. Britain always designs for cars to travel at speed, while the Dutch have lower speed limits combined with trees etc. One of the consequences of the UK putting driver's convenience and speed above all else is that street furniture provided for drivers (e.g. street lights, signs, traffic lights) end up located in the middle of the sidewalk so that they're not "dangerously" close to the road. This makes the sidewalks less attractive for pedestrians, and leads to more driving. You see just this contrast between British and Dutch roads. Britain always designs for cars to travel at speed, while the Dutch have lower speed limits combined with trees etc.

One of the consequences of the UK putting driver’s convenience and speed above all else is that street furniture provided for drivers (e.g. street lights, signs, traffic lights) end up located in the middle of the sidewalk so that they’re not “dangerously” close to the road.

This makes the sidewalks less attractive for pedestrians, and leads to more driving.

]]> By: Peter http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-1810 Peter Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:56:21 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-1810 Good post - we should design streets for real conditions, not hypothetical situations that are only fun to talk about in class. the 2nd-to-last paragraph is ill-formed, and i'm not sure it would make sense even if it was syntax-correct. Good post - we should design streets for real conditions, not hypothetical situations that are only fun to talk about in class.

the 2nd-to-last paragraph is ill-formed, and i’m not sure it would make sense even if it was syntax-correct.

]]> By: Peter http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-1809 Peter Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:52:47 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-1809 closer to 19 mph, but i get the point: http://www.google.com/search?q=30kph+in+mph&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a 30 kph = 18.6411358 mph The only thing I'm trying to figure out is, is 20 MPH too high a limit to allow here in the US, or should we go ahead and advocate for 18 MPH or less? closer to 19 mph, but i get the point:

http://www.google.com/search?q=30kph+in+mph&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

30 kph = 18.6411358 mph

The only thing I’m trying to figure out is, is 20 MPH too high a limit to allow here in the US, or should we go ahead and advocate for 18 MPH or less?

]]> By: Gary B http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-1800 Gary B Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:54:01 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-1800 I'm not sure if you've seen this before, but I thought I'd pass it on. An image listing the "Total odds of dying, any cause" was posted on the NSC.org website in August '06 and was available there until June '07. The image is still available from www.archive.org through this link: <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20070706051448/http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds_dying.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://web.archive.org/web/20070706051448/http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds_dying.jpg</a> Archive.org can sometimes be a little flakey. If it's acting up, I have a copy of the immage at the bottom of this <a href="http://cyclonecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/in-closing.html" rel="nofollow">blog post</a>. I’m not sure if you’ve seen this before, but I thought I’d pass it on. An image listing the “Total odds of dying, any cause” was posted on the NSC.org website in August ‘06 and was available there until June ‘07. The image is still available from http://www.archive.org through this link: http://web.archive.org/web/20070706051448/http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds_dying.jpg

Archive.org can sometimes be a little flakey. If it’s acting up, I have a copy of the immage at the bottom of this blog post.

]]> By: Vincent Clement http://www.howwedrive.com/2008/10/21/getting-it-wrong-in-montogomery-county/#comment-1798 Vincent Clement Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:26:17 +0000 http://www.howwedrive.com/?p=327#comment-1798 The way I look at it, I'd rather have vehicles hitting trees than hitting pedestrians or smashing into houses. Trees are a very attractive and effective safety barrier. I also hear that they cool surrounding area, clean the air and provide a habitat for other living creatures. Nothing drives me more crazy than designing for emergency response. Our fire department does not like hammerhead turnarounds - takes 'too long' for them to turn around. So instead we build huge cul-de-sacs that are the size of half a hockey rink. What a waste of space and resources. The way I look at it, I’d rather have vehicles hitting trees than hitting pedestrians or smashing into houses. Trees are a very attractive and effective safety barrier. I also hear that they cool surrounding area, clean the air and provide a habitat for other living creatures.

Nothing drives me more crazy than designing for emergency response.

Our fire department does not like hammerhead turnarounds - takes ‘too long’ for them to turn around. So instead we build huge cul-de-sacs that are the size of half a hockey rink. What a waste of space and resources.

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