Comments on: What say you? Will you yield, and this avoid?

By: Kevin C

Kevin C — Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:03:34 +0000

This is where you need to know your “Movement Ranks”:

Rank 1: major street thrus
major street rights
minor street pedestrians
Rank 2: major street lefts
minor street rights
major street pedestrians
Rank 3: minor street thrus
minor street lefts

By: Miles

Miles — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 08:39:54 +0000

The yield sign is simply posted too early to be meaningful in some other way; it is quite obvious that it was intended to be placed to the right of the channelized turn lane, which has to yield at the T-junction with the intersecting roadway anyway. It’s a misplaced reminder sign. In Vienna Convention countries its meaning would be “yield when stoplight is not in operation.”

By: Mrs. Davis

Mrs. Davis — Sun, 04 Apr 2010 18:21:13 +0000

“The yield sign is really just to legally establish regulation… the geometrics of the roadway inherently imply what motorists are supposed to do.”

Not really. Note in the second picture that there is an expressway entrance on the right. Left hand turners may well cut into the right hand lane to make the expressway entrance. The yield establishes their right to do so despite the appearance of two lanes. We also don’t know how quickly it reduces to one lane. Lots of lousy intersections where there are lots of hills and lots of cars.

By: njkayaker

njkayaker — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:28:00 +0000

Bossi@19 “The yield sign is really just to legally establish regulation… the geometrics of the roadway inherently imply what motorists are supposed to do.”

Well, without the yield sign, people would not have to yield. But I agree the setup of the roadway implies that yielding is appropriate. That’s why I don’t think the situation is very confusing.

Bossi@19 “As Dan notes: yes, two yield signs are one option;”

Two yield signs are certainly an option. You’d still need one where the current one is at (ie, the placement is very deliberate). If you are placing one sign, the “correct” location would be too late.

Bossi@19 “as are edgeline extensions across the end of the right-turn lane to outline the edge of the travelway; and yield lines (a row of little triangular pavement markings) are another option. Making the channelisation island readily visible is often the most critical step.”

Yes, the presence of the island is some sort of “signage” too. It’s information provided to the driver. That is a key thing.

It’s possible that making it more visible would help but that would not work in adverse weather. Not that the island is not very pronounced (presumably, to keep people from damaging their cars if they happen to miss the turn).

By: Bossi

Bossi — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 02:35:16 +0000

@njkayaker-
The yield sign is really just to legally establish regulation… the geometrics of the roadway inherently imply what motorists are supposed to do. As Dan notes: yes, two yield signs are one option; as are edgeline extensions across the end of the right-turn lane to outline the edge of the travelway; and yield lines (a row of little triangular pavement markings) are another option. Making the channelisation island readily visible is often the most critical step.

By: Dan

Dan — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 01:42:57 +0000

To ease confusion I have at times seen 2 yield signs in this scenario, one on the right at the yield point and one on the right side of the island to the drivers left so he has to go between them, less chance of missing the sign this way.

By: njkayaker

njkayaker — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 22:11:32 +0000

Bossi @ 12 said: “However, the yield sign is not placed correctly — it’s placed too early. It should be nearer to the actual yield point… might be something worth sharing with PennDOT if it hasn’t already (especially because my experience has been that people are faster to send info to blogs than they are to the DOTs, even though citizens are the DOT’s eyes & ears)”

The yield sign is where it is because people would not see it where it “technically” should be because they are looking to the left at the turning traffic.

The right-turn lane driver should see the island and realize that the yield refers to a place where he might need to yield. That is, I don’t think the placement is actually confusing. And if it is confusing, then that should make the driver more cautious (which is kind of the purpose of yielding anyway).

By: njkayaker

njkayaker — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 22:05:27 +0000

The yield sign in the second picture is techically misplaced. The right-turn lane is, basically, an “on ramp” to the other street. The problem is that if the yield sign was moved further along the curve, no one making the right turn would see it because their attention is focused on “left turning” traffic. Note that these “left turners” are through traffic by the time the cars using the right-turn lane get to them.

This is technically two intersections close together.

Anyway, the signs that other drivers see don’t apply to you.

I don’t see that drivers would have any particular problems negotiating this.

It’s “much ado about nothing”.

By: Tom Vanderbilt

Tom Vanderbilt — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:22:58 +0000

Excellent… from random blog query to possible DOT action in a dozen comments!

By: Bossi

Bossi — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:35:38 +0000

Another update: I got an email back from PennDOT. They believe the a city project may have positioned the sign incorrectly; the plans reportedly show it in the right place. They’ll check into it.

Bear in mind that while PennDOT technically owns the road, by and large the local municipalities operate & maintain them. And since most states have stronger county governments… in PA it’s instead stronger municipal governments; so there is a LOT more complexity as every jurisdiction has their own cultures & treatments… not just with traffic, but for everything.